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| Main / Discussions / Shotgun 4 Search Forum | |
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| Poster | Message |
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MonsterT95
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posted: 2017-07-18 18:03:53 (ID: 100109927) Report Abuse |
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Well, Pete implemented this a season ago :
https://redzoneaction.org/football/index.php?page=mag&subpage=mag&seasonnumber=25&weeknumber=11 |
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Schwabe
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posted: 2017-07-19 08:19:41 (ID: 100109980) Report Abuse |
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Superpippo
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posted: 2017-07-19 09:35:52 (ID: 100109985) Report Abuse |
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Schwabe wrote:
Here you see the true face of SG4 My god! I've never seen anything like it! That team totally destroyed you by 5 points outperforming you with a dazzling 28 yards! That quarterback of his posting insane numbers! 3 TD's AND 3 INT's a rating of 79,72! Come on man, just look at this without being upset you lost a game you wanted to win. His team is built completely around his QB and WR and yes he only uses shotgun 4g. But the margin he won by is so small it could have gone eitherway. The stats both of you put up are very similar, this means as long as the RNG has room to screw you over it's bound to happen sooner or later so... Don't get frustrated, get better!  |
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| posted: 2017-07-19 11:28:10 (ID: 100109991) Report Abuse | |
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In the mentioned game both managers ran crazy playbooks, btw. Therefore both teams operates on the same shitty level
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OrangeCrush
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posted: 2017-07-19 11:33:18 (ID: 100109992) Report Abuse |
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Superpippo wrote:
Schwabe wrote:
Here you see the true face of SG4 My god! I've never seen anything like it! That team totally destroyed you by 5 points outperforming you with a dazzling 28 yards! That quarterback of his posting insane numbers! 3 TD's AND 3 INT's a rating of 79,72! Come on man, just look at this without being upset you lost a game you wanted to win. His team is built completely around his QB and WR and yes he only uses shotgun 4g. But the margin he won by is so small it could have gone eitherway. The stats both of you put up are very similar, this means as long as the RNG has room to screw you over it's bound to happen sooner or later so... Don't get frustrated, get better! Sometimes better to check thoroughly befor giving 'good' advice 
It was not Schwabes team that got beat, it was another team. And as it was not only SG4 pass all day it was SG4 pass outside all day. I would have hoped that the lopsided penalty would be harsher on that lopsided a penalty. 3 picks is imo ok, would probably be more in RL if a team would just have to defend the outside and would not need to honor the threat of a rush. But 68 % Completion percentage (or 63.2% if you include the sacks) is way too high imo. then again, it is a really small sample, no knock on the lopsided penalty here. And you can't just argue, that RL does also a lot of Gun use, that is right but in RL you always mix in the run and you would work the whole field. However, in RZA we have the existing AC model and it helps if you can ignore, TE, RB and to an extend also FB coach (as also lousy FBs tend to be nearly perfect on Blitz Pickups) So it gives you a significant advantage to just use SG4 pass outside, which imo was the reason to raise the impact of the lopsided penalty. If you asked me, that penalty should be even higher, but I am a defensive minded coach and would applaude everything, which helps stopping an offense , so take it with a grain of salt.
And you need to look at way more data than one game to conclude anything |
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MonsterT95
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posted: 2017-07-19 11:56:02 (ID: 100109995) Report Abuse |
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Superpippo
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posted: 2017-07-19 12:34:57 (ID: 100110000) Report Abuse |
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OrangeCrush wrote:
Superpippo wrote:
Schwabe wrote:
Here you see the true face of SG4 My god! I've never seen anything like it! That team totally destroyed you by 5 points outperforming you with a dazzling 28 yards! That quarterback of his posting insane numbers! 3 TD's AND 3 INT's a rating of 79,72! Come on man, just look at this without being upset you lost a game you wanted to win. His team is built completely around his QB and WR and yes he only uses shotgun 4g. But the margin he won by is so small it could have gone eitherway. The stats both of you put up are very similar, this means as long as the RNG has room to screw you over it's bound to happen sooner or later so... Don't get frustrated, get better! Sometimes better to check thoroughly befor giving 'good' advice
It was not Schwabes team that got beat, it was another team. And as it was not only SG4 pass all day it was SG4 pass outside all day. I would have hoped that the lopsided penalty would be harsher on that lopsided a penalty. 3 picks is imo ok, would probably be more in RL if a team would just have to defend the outside and would not need to honor the threat of a rush. But 68 % Completion percentage (or 63.2% if you include the sacks) is way too high imo. then again, it is a really small sample, no knock on the lopsided penalty here. And you can't just argue, that RL does also a lot of Gun use, that is right but in RL you always mix in the run and you would work the whole field. However, in RZA we have the existing AC model and it helps if you can ignore, TE, RB and to an extend also FB coach (as also lousy FBs tend to be nearly perfect on Blitz Pickups) So it gives you a significant advantage to just use SG4 pass outside, which imo was the reason to raise the impact of the lopsided penalty. If you asked me, that penalty should be even higher, but I am a defensive minded coach and would applaude everything, which helps stopping an offense , so take it with a grain of salt.
And you need to look at way more data than one game to conclude anything My apologies, 
His loss against the bounty hunter was bigger, got caught up a bit. I'm not saying it's not a lazy tactic and I wouldn't mind the lopsided tactics to be way harsher, but it's kinda silly to blame it on the shotgun being too strong. Statiscally it's not that big a difference. No matter what Pete will change there will always be those that look for the easiest way too get a decent result with minimum effort. All we can do is hope to raise the minimum effort needed! |
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Gambler75
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posted: 2017-07-19 14:54:35 (ID: 100110008) Edits found: 1 Report Abuse |
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Spamming shotgun has been a problem for years, and will likely continue to be so ... 'bout the 100th of these discussions I've seen.
Used to be not QUITE as drastic as it is now ... you call any non-SG2/SG4 formation at your peril, since the speed of QB doesn't let you run the other formations without getting sacked into oblivion any more either. (Don't get me wrong, I liked the speed of QB not being such a heavy factor, but it made SG feel even more lopsided) Can see plenty of examples of Elite teams that have figured out it's better to spam SG2/4 flanks only for 75%+ of the game, and just take the thumbs down ... if you can still complete 75-80% of all passes even with the penalty, why would you risk the others that are running at about twice or more the sack rate of SG? The worst pass happy teams in the NFL last season was the Ravens @ 66/34 ratio ... the middle ground is moving towards 60/40, but isn't quite there yet. Heaviest running teams? Dallas, New England, Miami, Tennessee, Houston, Carolina were all around 51-55% passing. Badly trailing teams only hit around 70% going by individual games ... any more than that, the DL will stop playing honest and sacks start piling up. So the NFL running 60% of plays from the shotgun, versus someone passing 90% out of the same formation with the same "play" (only flanks), is NOT similar. Just my 2 cents, I've been guilty of doing the same to a degree ... but I've stopped and will just take my lumps running other formations, as I find it boring as #$&@ watching a game of SG spamming. Last edited on 2017-07-19 14:55:21 by Gambler75 |
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Schwabe
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posted: 2017-07-19 15:17:23 (ID: 100110009) Report Abuse |
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Gambler75 wrote:
Spamming shotgun has been a problem for years, and will likely continue to be so ... 'bout the 100th of these discussions I've seen. Used to be not QUITE as drastic as it is now ... you call any non-SG2/SG4 formation at your peril, since the speed of QB doesn't let you run the other formations without getting sacked into oblivion any more either. (Don't get me wrong, I liked the speed of QB not being such a heavy factor, but it made SG feel even more lopsided) Can see plenty of examples of Elite teams that have figured out it's better to spam SG2/4 flanks only for 75%+ of the game, and just take the thumbs down ... if you can still complete 75-80% of all passes even with the penalty, why would you risk the others that are running at about twice or more the sack rate of SG? The worst pass happy teams in the NFL last season was the Ravens @ 66/34 ratio ... the middle ground is moving towards 60/40, but isn't quite there yet. Heaviest running teams? Dallas, New England, Miami, Tennessee, Houston, Carolina were all around 51-55% passing. Badly trailing teams only hit around 70% going by individual games ... any more than that, the DL will stop playing honest and sacks start piling up. So the NFL running 60% of plays from the shotgun, versus someone passing 90% out of the same formation with the same "play" (only flanks), is NOT similar. Just my 2 cents, I've been guilty of doing the same to a degree ... but I've stopped and will just take my lumps running other formations, as I find it boring as #$&@ watching a game of SG spamming.  |
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passionatelad
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posted: 2017-07-19 15:20:35 (ID: 100110010) Report Abuse |
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Gambler75 wrote:
Spamming shotgun has been a problem for years, and will likely continue to be so ... 'bout the 100th of these discussions I've seen. Used to be not QUITE as drastic as it is now ... you call any non-SG2/SG4 formation at your peril, since the speed of QB doesn't let you run the other formations without getting sacked into oblivion any more either. (Don't get me wrong, I liked the speed of QB not being such a heavy factor, but it made SG feel even more lopsided) Can see plenty of examples of Elite teams that have figured out it's better to spam SG2/4 flanks only for 75%+ of the game, and just take the thumbs down ... if you can still complete 75-80% of all passes even with the penalty, why would you risk the others that are running at about twice or more the sack rate of SG? The worst pass happy teams in the NFL last season was the Ravens @ 66/34 ratio ... the middle ground is moving towards 60/40, but isn't quite there yet. Heaviest running teams? Dallas, New England, Miami, Tennessee, Houston, Carolina were all around 51-55% passing. Badly trailing teams only hit around 70% going by individual games ... any more than that, the DL will stop playing honest and sacks start piling up. So the NFL running 60% of plays from the shotgun, versus someone passing 90% out of the same formation with the same "play" (only flanks), is NOT similar. Just my 2 cents, I've been guilty of doing the same to a degree ... but I've stopped and will just take my lumps running other formations, as I find it boring as #$&@ watching a game of SG spamming. Finally someone else that sees it. I know its been brought up a few times including by me. Its a frustration that everyone seems to be blind to it or don't seem the issue needs dealing with. I always set my offence PB to a style or by a teams DEF that focused around 1 formation like the SG |
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