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pete
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posted: 2024-02-15 18:57:08 (ID: 100181429) Report Abuse
It is not about to negotiate with those who like to go violent. It is always about creating consensus between the parties who have to deal with the situation on a daily bases, and refuse violence.
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Olband
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posted: 2024-02-15 19:20:31 (ID: 100181431) Report Abuse
pete wrote:
It is not about to negotiate with those who like to go violent. It is always about creating consensus between the parties who have to deal with the situation on a daily bases, and refuse violence.

Yes, create the consensus, but you can't just ignore those who deal out violence, or they'll continue to hurt people. So what do you do about them?
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pete
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posted: 2024-02-15 19:26:26 (ID: 100181432) Report Abuse
Olband wrote:
Yes, create the consensus, but you can't just ignore those who deal out violence, or they'll continue to hurt people. So what do you do about them?


In an ideal society it would be obvious, that those people are not part of any solution as long as they have violence on their agenda. If you involve those without making clear, that the involvement means "no violence", you would allow for more violence, since violence made them a compromise.

In both Israel and Gaza, I am quite sure, there are many people being sick of violence. Those are the ones that should create a future, together or split apart by an border.
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jpnwrt
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posted: 2024-02-17 21:02:11 (ID: 100181500)  Edits found: 1 Report Abuse
Eliminating terrorists doesn't solve problems. All it does long term, imho, is it creates martyrs.

Last edited on 2024-02-17 21:15:47 by jpnwrt

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Olband
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posted: 2024-02-20 23:07:59 (ID: 100181590) Report Abuse
jpnwrt wrote:
Eliminating terrorists doesn't solve problems. All it does long term, imho, is it creates martyrs.

Which leads back to my original point. No matter your 'solution' there are still going to be people filled with anger and hate (Yoda can tell you what that leads to) so there is no long term solution for the area: only negotiated periods of peace punctuated by articulations of violence.

WAR! Good (enter deity or non-deity of preference)! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!
~ words I think we can all agree to, but lack the power to change.
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pete
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posted: 2024-02-20 23:31:46 (ID: 100181592)  Edits found: 1 Report Abuse
Some people think the war in this area is purely based on the fact people pray to different gods. But it is much more. When I was in Jordan last autumn, I had a few discussions with locals, really nice people with open hearts. Some became really anger when telling the politics of rerouting rivers to get more water, as example. So, we have to make ourselves very clear that wars are fights for resources, too. I know this sounds like captain obvious ...

This leads to the conclusion that we have to take care of our resources. And we will have to ackonwledge that if we do not act fair, the poorer people will come to a point where they do not just ask anymore. Those streams of refugees we see in Europe, and fight against in a very bad way btw, are a direct result of unfair distribution of resources, too.

What puzzles me as well is the fact that "western countries" sometimes look from above, kind of down to those areas with tension. And we forget, that it is not this 3rd world thing to fight. Check Ukraine, check the former Yugoslavia with all its tensions during the last decades.

But we do not learn in the bigger picture.

And still, the people in Gaza and Israel will need a solution, no matter if this next step away from war brings a result which lasts for shorter or longer periods of time. This solution will last even longer if more people agree to this next single step.

But the main question was: with or without extremists on either side of the fence? My call is: without them, if they do not want to join the society in its hunger for peace.

Last edited on 2024-02-20 23:38:35 by pete

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jpnwrt
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posted: 2024-02-21 06:41:44 (ID: 100181595) Report Abuse
Olband wrote:
WAR! Good (enter deity or non-deity of preference)! What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!
~ words I think we can all agree to, but lack the power to change.


It's been nearly 100 years since Briand-Kellogg Pact. Renouncinging war as the means to solve any disputes. Any war, a difference from the UN version a bit later.
Signed by the score of countries. Its problem was lack of any practical ways of sanctioning the declarations. Two years following signing it, Japan entered the war in Manchuria.
And it still is, the problem. Looking on the list of signees, I can hardly find one not participating, or even starting - a subsequent war.

I fully agree with what Pete says. Without extremists. The question remains if there is any way to exclude them extremists from decision making, efficient enough to start really working before the world engages in the next global cataclism.
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Solana_Steve
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posted: 2024-02-21 06:53:01 (ID: 100181596) Report Abuse
pete wrote:
What puzzles me as well is the fact that "western countries" sometimes look from above, kind of down to those areas with tension. And we forget, that it is not this 3rd world thing to fight. Check Ukraine, check the former Yugoslavia with all its tensions during the last decades.


I assure you, that we in America don't look down on the Old World.

Seriously though, a lot of geopolitics thinkers feel that the world has seen unparalleled peace since WWII in large part because of the world order setup at Bretton Woods (aka globalization & world trade), the favorable & balanced world demographics and a balance between NATO and Soviet/Russia powers. However they also feel this is/has been going away - - demographics are aging in most of the developed world, globalization will go away as America pulls back, the bipolar power balance becomes multipolar or unbalanced. This will result in frequent wars in Europe and east Asia as in the centuries before 1945.

I hope not...but I don't know.


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jpnwrt
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posted: 2024-02-21 07:18:31 (ID: 100181597) Report Abuse
About extremism. The problem is way deeper than the relations between countries. Deeper than internal ethnic conflicts. When i look at the countries where for some time a certain group was oppressing others, the first thing those formerly oppressed do after coming to power, is to oppress the former oppressors.
And while it may be fair, it does not always mean - best.
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Drogon
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posted: 2024-02-23 02:18:14 (ID: 100181708)  Edits found: 1 Report Abuse
pete wrote:
In both Israel and Gaza, I am quite sure, there are many people being sick of violence.


pete wrote:
And still, the people in Gaza and Israel will need a solution


Sir, not Gaza but Palestine, which includes Gaza and Cisjordan (also known as the West Bank, occupied Palestinian territories).

Last edited on 2024-02-23 02:46:38 by Drogon

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