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| Main / Discussions / INT returns Search Forum | |
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| posted: 2013-07-21 19:15:29 (ID: 100001200) Report Abuse | |
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Darkwater wrote:
Just to help you ;-)  |
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bwadders76
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posted: 2013-07-21 20:39:22 (ID: 100001208) Report Abuse |
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There are so many possibilities regarding a fumble or an interception that to just state it's wrong is bordering on the plain rude.
You mentioned a tipped interception now look at the possibilities from that. Who tipped it? Which direction? Did it go straight up in the air? Towards the sideline? Back into the main bunch of players? Even how high was it tipped? What was the position of the person intercepting the ball? Was he diving? Did he run onto the tipped ball like a rugby pass? Did he have to wait for the ball to come to him? If so could someone get there in time? What is the position of the person the ball was thrown to? Does he have good blocking ahead? Can the offense react? All these questions would need to be put into a code for deciding upon the return yardage. I have seen games that have full time programmers with actual financial budgets and reported profits not get a game as close to this after less than two years of being available online. Sure this game isn't perfect and there are lots of improvements to be made but it is being managed by someone who has to treat it like we all do..... a hobby. Not so long back we had someone who just like you was quite aggressive in his criticisms especially if everything wasn't dropped and his proposals implemented immediately. It was suggested (by me mainly) that if he could do better he went away and wrote his own game. I have still yet to receive my invite to try it (those who have been here a while will know the game I talking about). There isn't anyone here who doesn't want this game to get better but most of us enjoy it for what it is. A work in progress. |
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Beergut2
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posted: 2013-07-21 20:55:34 (ID: 100001212) Report Abuse |
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A work in progress is right. We all want the game to be the best it can be and eventually as realistic as possible, but we have to be patient.
As far as the INTs for TDs go, yeah it happens a bit too often. But which ones get returned for TDs? Deep passes? Swing passes? Short passes in the middle? Surely some of these situations should result in more TD returns than others so we just need to look at that and I am sure Pete and the gang could make some future tweaks to the returns. Are we also putting fumble returns for TDs into the argument? Maybe a solution is as simple as giving offensive players a small boost in tackling skill. |
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Gambler75
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posted: 2013-07-21 20:57:04 (ID: 100001213) Report Abuse |
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NFL Career Interceptions Leaders page
NFL Career Int Yardage Leaders page + Excel + about 10 minutes. All the folks who appeared on the top 100 in both, range from about 14 yards per return to 18 yards per return *on the career*. Problem is, for those screaming for realism ... 0-2 yard INT returns (fighting for the ball in air / tackled almost immediately), and HIGH yard returns (jumping the route cleanly) would likely make up the bulk of that. The statistical distribution would look like an upside down bell curve, and "canning" it to what seems a more reasonable average would also be badly unrealistic. 
*edit - so my rough guess, is roughly 1 in about 3 or 4 Ints, ought to go back for a TD, if you want it to fit the NFL stats, give or take* Another thing to mention ... Not a criticism, as it's related to *everyone* throwing short. But the NFL career Int leaders, has exactly 0 LB on it. All CB + SF. It seems the reverse here, but I think that could definitely be more a symptom of no one passing med/long. end edit*Last edited on 2013-07-21 21:12:11 by Gambler75 |
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Gambler75
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posted: 2013-07-21 20:59:24 (ID: 100001214) Report Abuse |
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Beergut2 wrote:
... Maybe a solution is as simple as giving offensive players a small boost in tackling skill. I wonder does the "a player is at 75% of a skill with a 1" not apply to tackling on offense? Would seem they could do a little better, especially in the lower level games where every fumble or INT is a TD, if so. |
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Gambler75
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posted: 2013-07-21 21:19:55 (ID: 100001219) Report Abuse |
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Doing the same sort of comparison on #s for fumbles, is much lower, as expected.
Average return range was just over 5 yards, and the top career guys were just under 10 yards per return. But again, subject to above ... if you broke it down further, you would see a lot of 0 yard returns, just recoveries ... and some rare long ones. But definitely more rare than long Int returns on the whole. |
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Frankebasta
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posted: 2013-07-22 04:59:20 (ID: 100001238) Report Abuse |
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pete wrote:
Maybe this is because most offense players lacks on tackling skills. Right now, we do not see fully built players, but when I wrote the stuff I expected that offense players should have some defense skills too, since they act as defenders on returns one more quick-to-apply and effective solution would be to create a new "special trait". Along with "Long Reach" which applies to defensive players ONLY on INT attempts, the offensive players (all of them) would have a +5% (or 10%, or 50% whatever is appropriate/effectve) in tackling. It would solve the problem of low skills once and for all. |
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Frankebasta
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posted: 2013-07-22 05:31:33 (ID: 100001239) Report Abuse |
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bwadders76 wrote:
There are so many possibilities regarding a fumble or an interception that to just state it's wrong is bordering on the plain rude. You mentioned a tipped interception now look at the possibilities from that. Not so long back we had someone who just like you was quite aggressive in his criticisms especially if everything wasn't dropped and his proposals implemented immediately. It was suggested (by me mainly) that if he could do better he went away and wrote his own game. I have still yet to receive my invite to try it (those who have been here a while will know the game I talking about). Are you trying to flame me? If so, I ask the moderator for an intervention, because direct personal attacks should be barred from a public forum. Then again, if you like me, are just stating plain obvious facts about what happens on the field, then you came good second. Maybe you can add some ideas of yours instead of expanding those already stated. For the record: I didn't complain uselessly. I made a point, supported by evidence, and suggested possible solutions. If they can be implemented, I do not know, because I (we) don't know how the game engine works. But if pete (god-bless-his-soul for putting up with such forum members as you and, bwadders76), is inconsisted with his answers I feel I can point that out, for the sake of the improvement of this game. |
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Frankebasta
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posted: 2013-07-22 06:11:39 (ID: 100001241) Report Abuse |
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pete wrote:
Yep...but we are looking to adapt official stats into the games engine. We did this quite successful on other parts of the game already. Therefore I give much more on numbers than on feelings. I guess you understand that one. @darkwater: GFL stats are not usable - but NFL stats are 
Fine with me. One of the reasons I signed up with RZA instead of other game is the realistic stats. Then again, I racked up 900yds of total offense against a bot
But it's a bot, I'm ready to discard that. Serioiusly: are you, pete, and we as players, trying to mimic the NFL? It seems so, given the above answer of yours, and the schedule format of 16 games, Leagues of 32 teams broken in Conference and Divisions. Excellent idea, IMO. As we are all more familiar with NFL standards than NCAA or CFL. However, when it comes down to the sheer numbers, we should be well aware of the problems NFL stats carry along with themselves. I read an interestin article about that last week. As soon as I manage to retrieve it, I'll provide the URL. For now, I can offer some "food for thought". Do you know about SABRmetrics? (you might know the movie Moneyball) It's Society for American Baseball Research. They've been around for more than a decade now, and brought the stat analysis to a whole new level. I strongly recommend to learn from it, not only about baseball, but any kind of stat analysis. And any kind of observation about Real Life, as well as they managed to discover many false myths which the general consensus regarded as Hard-Set facts. Now, regarding to RZA, the point is you cannot just plain use NFL stat averages and implement them into this game of yours (ours). Because, as SABR taught us, the sample size which created those stats is a tiny one. Too small to be of any significance. Even in baseball, where all plays are created equal at the beginning (pitcher vs. batter, and all players on the field in set places), a whole season of AtBats (aroun 600) is not regarded as good enough to cancel the random noise created by chance (luck). More than 1,000 AB are considered barely enough. Now, in the NFL, playing just 16 games, it's ridiculous to give too much weight to plain "averages" The article I mentioned above, also made this point: a 60-yd run for TD (and so much more a Reception) could very well have been an 80-yarder. It simply meant the ballcarrier got past the whole defense. The actual yardage is a function of the position of the ball: the scrimmage line. It is not in function of the player's ability! Those 20 more yards, computed to the tiny number of attempts a RB (WR) has over the season (50-250 in the NFL) bears quite a significance on an average basis. None whatsoever on the actual player's effectiveness however. One more point to discuss: NFL averages (rushing, passing, INT returns) are dependant on the NFL "playing style". I mean, the kind of plays the Head Coaches actually perform. That is, HC are pretty much conservative in what they do: they conform to the medium of the league. 4th down means a punt. (whereas, SABR-analysis on football tell us that with a 4th-and less than 3 at midfield is better to give it a go). The evidence of this behaviour is the statistical abberhance of such teams as "Air" Don Coryell/Dan Fouts Chargers. They put up other-wordly passing numbers..... just because they passed on more plays than anybody else ever did. The same with Warren Moon's Oilers (first team with 4 WR above 80 Rec in one season). The same "noise" can be seen with regards to rushing average by scrambling QBs. It's no more the 4.4avg per carry we're accoustomed by RB. It's easily above 6y/c. My point is, you cannot possibly compare the NFL, with savvy (?) headcoaches with RZA games, where managers will throw deep (an opponent of mine registered a 0-51 with 9 Ints on the bombs, in a friendly), or will punt on 4th-and-one on the OPPONENTS 6-yd-line. These are obvious abberrations. Manager's choice. But cannot have any statistical relevance. Finally, what I'm trying to convey is that we should all use more common sense, and less numbers when trying to mimic american football on a managerial simulation. Cut-and-past will just not work. |
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| posted: 2013-07-22 07:34:39 (ID: 100001246) Report Abuse | |
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