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| Main / Discussions / Using Head to Head instead of Points Difference Search Forum | |
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2013-02-25 21:29:57 (ID: 84639) Report Abuse |
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Hi guys,
As the title says I think using Head to Head match-ups instead of Points Difference would be more realistic and it'd have a better chance of letting the best team through and not the team that put up the most points against Bots. For example, let's say 3 teams are tied for tops in a league or Supercup division, we'll call them team A, B and C. - Team A beat B by 10pt, lost to C by 20pts and beat every other team by 50pts. That's a 14-1 record +640pts diffenrence. - Team B lost to A by 10pt, beat C by 1pt and beat every other team by 60pts. That's a 14-1 record +771pts difference - Team C beat A by 20pts, lost to B by 1pt and won every other game by 40pts. That's a 14-1 record +499pts difference Using the current system team B would qualify based on point difference because it beat the Bots/newbies in the group by a greater difference... I don't think this is good for the game because it encourages top teams to win by the biggest possible margin which in turn might put some new teams off the game. Losing by 30/40 is one thing but losing by 100+ can be extremely discouraging. What I propose for the above scenario is to only count the games the teams tied played against each other. So this would mean the following. - Team A beat B by 10pts and lost to C by 20pts, that's a 1-1 record -10 point difference in meaningful games. - Team B lost to A by 10pts and beat C by 1pt, that's a 1-1 record -9 point difference in meaningful games. - Team C beat A by 20pts and lost to B by 1pt, that's a 1-1 record +19 point difference in meaningful games. Team C would therefore qualify by virtue of playing better against top opponents as opposed to team B making it for hammering bots by more points than team A and C. This would also be closer to the NFL since point difference is a really late tie-breaker (almost never used) in that league. Here are the official NFL tie-breaker rules. "If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined. Two Clubs Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. Strength of victory. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in common games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Coin toss Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs). Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. Strength of victory. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in common games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Coin toss" http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures What do you guys think? |
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Spiff
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posted: 2013-02-26 07:21:27 (ID: 84654) Report Abuse |
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Perfect
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Grzymisław
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posted: 2013-02-26 15:01:24 (ID: 84697) Report Abuse |
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I think it's always bad rule despite it's used often in real life.
It makes less games really important(team should focus on playing rivals of similar strength and don't care a lot about much stronger or much weaker opponents). When point difference decides, then all the games are important. |
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| posted: 2013-02-26 15:10:06 (ID: 84699) Report Abuse | |
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It won't come true, as pointed out several times before.
1.) The database story for determining live table standings is a mess. You cannot operate on single SQL statements anymore, you need "compiled" stats 2.) It adds NOTHING to the game, it is just "make it more real life". Basically I like "more RL", but not at any price |
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2013-02-26 18:14:54 (ID: 84722) Report Abuse |
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pete wrote:
It won't come true, as pointed out several times before. 1.) The database story for determining live table standings is a mess. You cannot operate on single SQL statements anymore, you need "compiled" stats 2.) It adds NOTHING to the game, it is just "make it more real life". Basically I like "more RL", but not at any price Fair enough for 1) but I think 2) is not true. If points difference didn't matter top teams would play their back ups in many SuperCup games leading to smaller losses for newer teams. As I said above losing by 100pts is certainly more discouraging than losing by 30/40pts so you might get more managers to stay long term if they weren't handed 100+pts losses. Thanks for the response though and I don't know much about programming so if you tell me it's not doable I take your word for it. |
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hosh13
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posted: 2013-02-27 17:02:42 (ID: 84842) Report Abuse |
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Yep. If you beat another team twice and they beat you to a playoff spot due to PD then that's bad.
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| posted: 2013-02-28 01:35:46 (ID: 84913) Report Abuse | |
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Here is the NFL TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES
NFL Tiebreaking Procedures The six postseason participants from each conference are seeded as follows: The division champion with the best record. The division champion with the second-best record. The division champion with the third-best record. The division champion with the fourth-best record. The Wild Card club with the best record. The Wild Card club with the second-best record. The following procedures will be used to break standings ties for postseason playoffs and to determine regular-season schedules. NOTE: Tie games count as one-half win and one-half loss for both clubs. TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined. Two Clubs Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs). Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. Strength of victory. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in common games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Coin toss Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format). Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs). Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. Strength of victory. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in common games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Coin toss TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken. If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker. If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps. Two Clubs Head-to-head, if applicable. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four. Strength of victory. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in conference games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Coin toss. Three or More Clubs (Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of applicable two-club format.) Apply division tie breaker to eliminate all but the highest ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. The original seeding within a division upon application of the division tie breaker remains the same for all subsequent applications of the procedure that are necessary to identify the two Wild-Card participants. Head-to-head sweep. (Applicable only if one club has defeated each of the others or if one club has lost to each of the others.) Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games, minimum of four. Strength of victory. Strength of schedule. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed. Best net points in conference games. Best net points in all games. Best net touchdowns in all games. Coin toss When the first Wild-Card team has been identified, the procedure is repeated to name the second Wild-Card, i.e., eliminate all but the highest-ranked club in each division prior to proceeding to step 2. In situations where three or more teams from the same division are involved in the procedure, the original seeding of the teams remains the same for subsequent applications of the tie breaker if the top-ranked team in that division qualifies for a Wild-Card berth. OTHER TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURES Only one club advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. Remaining tied clubs revert to the first step of the applicable division or Wild Card tie-breakers. As an example, if two clubs remain tied in any tie-breaker step after all other clubs have been eliminated, the procedure reverts to Step 1 of the two-club format to determine the winner. When one club wins the tiebreaker, all other clubs revert to Step 1 of the applicable two-club or three-club format. In comparing records against common opponents among tied teams, the best won-lost-tied percentage is the deciding factor, since teams may have played an unequal number of games. To determine home-field priority among division-titlists, apply Wild Card tie-breakers. To determine home-field priority for Wild Card qualifiers, apply division tie-breakers (if teams are from the same division) or Wild Card tiebreakers (if teams are from different divisions). To determine the best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed, add a team's position in the two categories, and the lowest score wins. For example, if Team A is first in points scored and second in points allowed, its combined ranking is "3." If Team B is third in points scored and first in points allowed, its combined ranking is "4." Team A then wins the tiebreaker. If two teams are tied for a position, both teams are awarded the ranking as if they held it solely. For example, if Team A and Team B are tied for first in points scored, each team is assigned a ranking of "1" in that category, and if Team C is third, its ranking will still be "3." TIE-BREAKING PROCEDURE FOR SELECTION MEETING Clubs not participating in the playoffs shall s e l e c t in the first through 20th positions in reverse standings order. The Super Bowl winner is last and Super Bowl loser is next-to-last. The losers of the Conference Championship games shall s e l e c t 29th and 30th based on won-lost-tied percentage. The losers of the Divisional playoff games shall s e l e c t 25th through 28th based on won-lost-tied percentage. The losers of the Wild Card games shall s e l e c t 21st through 24th based on won-lost-tied percentage. If ties exist in any grouping except (2) above, such ties shall be broken by strength-of-schedule. If any ties cannot be broken by strength-of-schedule, the divisional or conference tie-breakers, if applicable, shall be applied. Any ties that still exist shall be broken by a coin flip. I think most notice programmers could put this in a single SQL statement! :-) Steve SD Blitz Last edited on 2013-02-28 01:36:38 by Solana_Steve |
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| posted: 2013-02-28 08:16:35 (ID: 84929) Report Abuse | |
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Solana_Steve wrote:
I think most notice programmers could put this in a single SQL statement! :-)  |
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sketchy1
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posted: 2013-02-28 17:45:52 (ID: 85005) Report Abuse |
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pete wrote:
It won't come true, as pointed out several times before. 1.) The database story for determining live table standings is a mess. You cannot operate on single SQL statements anymore, you need "compiled" stats 2.) It adds NOTHING to the game, it is just "make it more real life". Basically I like "more RL", but not at any price 2 isn't even close to correct. you might not be able to do it, which is fine. but saying it wouldn't improve the game is asinine. no football league anywhere uses PD over head to head for tiebreaking procedures. i'm not even really sure why it was implemented in the first place unless you had no choice. it makes NO sense for a team who got beat twice by a team who tied them in their division to make the playoffs simply because they had a bigger PD. i get it, you can't do it, but i really don't like the insinuation that it doesn't matter because it really does, and it makes no sense you did it this way from the beginning. |
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| posted: 2013-02-28 17:51:26 (ID: 85008) Report Abuse | |
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sketchy1 wrote:
pete wrote:
It won't come true, as pointed out several times before. 1.) The database story for determining live table standings is a mess. You cannot operate on single SQL statements anymore, you need "compiled" stats 2.) It adds NOTHING to the game, it is just "make it more real life". Basically I like "more RL", but not at any price 2 isn't even close to correct. you might not be able to do it, which is fine. but saying it wouldn't improve the game is asinine. no football league anywhere uses PD over head to head for tiebreaking procedures. i'm not even really sure why it was implemented in the first place unless you had no choice. it makes NO sense for a team who got beat twice by a team who tied them in their division to make the playoffs simply because they had a bigger PD. i get it, you can't do it, but i really don't like the insinuation that it doesn't matter because it really does, and it makes no sense you did it this way from the beginning. Sorry, but IMO it does not matter. We have rules, everybody knows them, and one rule is that PD is a tiebreaker, while H2H is not. By this, nobody needs to go crazy when losing based on this fact, since he/she knew it before and these rules are the same for all. This is why I say it won't add anything to the game. It might add something in the head of the managers, since it would reflect a little piece of RL, but it adds - again - nothing to the gameplay itself. No trophy will be a better one because of head to head, and a superbowl participant won't win more or less reputation because of using H2H instead of the PD. Hope you understand my answer as I meant it to be |
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