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| Main / Discussions / new thread about The Shotgun Search Forum | |
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holmeboy
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posted: 2013-03-02 13:48:32 (ID: 85241) Report Abuse |
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JonnyP wrote:
andrew2scott2 wrote:
....And I'm sorry you deserve to get burn deep ever time running anything other than the dime or 335 against the shotgun 4wr All true apart from the last line. With a good fast secondary and decent OLBs, a team playing 3-4 should be ok. My opinion is that people are over-using the dime (much as they did the 5-3-3 in the old engine), and are moaning about getting bullied on the ground. The Dime is a defense designed to prevent big plays, and should be relied on for 2nd/3rd and long situations - it's not a 1st and 10 defense. It's a defense against which an offense can expect to complete short passes, or pick up solid gains on the ground, but struggle to break for bigger yardage. It should not be the permanent D vs any team who play from the SG4WR set. I agree with a lot of what JonnyP said. The dime is overused, and I am guilty of that too. But my LBs are much, much better than my CBs and some scrimmages: SG4WR passing v 3-4-4 - 80/938/11.7 I'd hate to think of the results if I tried it against JonnyP's Celtics, or Buffalo's Cardinals... I not saying the 3-4 should be as good as the dime, but should it be 2-3x worse? Obv its a small sample and I'll keep going. But the other thing is my QBs completion: >60%. Imo the completion should be lower as the QB is put under more pressure (blitzing LBs ftw), but with the FB blocking everything regardless of his blocking skill that doesn't happen... Buffalo lost last seasons conference playoff because JonnyP's offence got him to switch from dime to 3-4/4-3 (not rigged, obv great play by JonnyP). The 3-4/4-3 shouldn't be an answer but it at least should be a viable option. And when you think of the players involved in a rushing play: The I - 1 RB, 5 OL, 1 TE SG4WR - 1 FB, 5 OL Coming up against 3-3/Dime easily outweights the impact that the TE has imo. edit: although it seems like it, I'm not against people using SG as a base formation. It's just if I'm ever in a position to challenge for trophies I'd hate to think that it'll never happen because my opponents are using an unbalanced formation. Whether someone uses I/Pro/SG etc. they should have an equal chance. Last edited on 2013-03-02 14:04:53 by holmeboy |
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2013-03-02 19:37:11 (ID: 85273) Report Abuse |
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andrew2scott2 wrote:
The 4wr is alright for the run you can look at the my ranking in admirals 1.1 find that out. Right now I'm 3rd pass O but 23rd rush O and your saying my rushing ability is too strong. I'm sorry but these raw stats are terrible measures if you want to see how strong a formation is because these stats only count total yards. If you pass 10 times more than you run you'll have way more passing yards so it's on a per play basis that you should measure the efficiency of a formation. A quick look at your team stats show that your 4 FBs average roughly 5 yards per carry, if most of these runs came out of the SG4WR that's ridiculously high. 5 yards per carry is a good average in general so if you're running mainly from a PASS formation your average should be much lower. |
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hosh13
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posted: 2013-03-02 19:43:48 (ID: 85276) Report Abuse |
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There is no way that the 3-4 is a proper D to use vs a 4WR O.
You have 1 CB per WR or you have the wrong D on the field. The other problem is that you cannot do anything fancy from the Dime in terms of playing the run - like a 4-3 or 3-4 with all CBs and no SFs. In any case, as the game stands now, the Dime should do a very good job of stopping the run from the 4WR (and same for the 3-3 vs the SG2WR) if a team runs out of it more than ~ 30% There should also be a lot more fumbles running without a lead blocker all the time and more tfl. |
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JonnyP
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posted: 2013-03-02 19:50:07 (ID: 85279) Report Abuse |
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Meitheisman wrote:
andrew2scott2 wrote:
The 4wr is alright for the run you can look at the my ranking in admirals 1.1 find that out. Right now I'm 3rd pass O but 23rd rush O and your saying my rushing ability is too strong. I'm sorry but these raw stats are terrible measures if you want to see how strong a formation is because these stats only count total yards. If you pass 10 times more than you run you'll have way more passing yards so it's on a per play basis that you should measure the efficiency of a formation. A quick look at your team stats show that your 4 FBs average roughly 5 yards per carry, if most of these runs came out of the SG4WR that's ridiculously high. 5 yards per carry is a good average in general so if you're running mainly from a PASS formation your average should be much lower. If people solely use Dime and 3-3-5 against him though, 5 yards per carry is very realistic |
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2013-03-02 20:00:00 (ID: 85283) Report Abuse |
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JonnyP wrote:
Meitheisman wrote:
andrew2scott2 wrote:
The 4wr is alright for the run you can look at the my ranking in admirals 1.1 find that out. Right now I'm 3rd pass O but 23rd rush O and your saying my rushing ability is too strong. I'm sorry but these raw stats are terrible measures if you want to see how strong a formation is because these stats only count total yards. If you pass 10 times more than you run you'll have way more passing yards so it's on a per play basis that you should measure the efficiency of a formation. A quick look at your team stats show that your 4 FBs average roughly 5 yards per carry, if most of these runs came out of the SG4WR that's ridiculously high. 5 yards per carry is a good average in general so if you're running mainly from a PASS formation your average should be much lower. If people solely use Dime and 3-3-5 against him though, 5 yards per carry is very realistic I really don't think so, like I just pointed out in the other thread in SG4WR you only have 4 blockers (Center doesn't block) vs 4 DLs and a MLB so it's 4 vs 5 to begin with... if the D is expecting a PASS then 5yds per carry might be realistic but looking at Andrew's stats he passed 635 times and ran 768 times so he's actually running more than he's passing which means the D should be expecting the run. So you have a FB with only 4 blockers and a D expecting the run with minimum 5 guys in the box (one of the two safeties could come help too since the D adapts) and you think 5ypc is reasonable? I don't, the odds seem fairly stacked in favor of the defense for me so the average should be below 4ypc unless the FB makes the MLB miss the tackle every time. |
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JonnyP
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posted: 2013-03-02 20:10:35 (ID: 85285) Report Abuse |
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For a start you should have SEVEN blockers on a rush play from that formation...
I'm thinking in terms of real life, not RZA world. In real life, when a D lines up in the Dime, they are pretty much expecting to concede significant yards against the rush... it's a defensive formation which is designed for long yardage prevention. Let's not make it a standard D vs the Gun4WR, that's unrealistic. |
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2013-03-02 20:30:04 (ID: 85294) Report Abuse |
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But RZA and real life are so different that we can't compare the two and here we're talking about the use of SG4WR to run in RZA, not in the NFL. Or at least that's what I'd like to talk about, the fact that teams in RZA (not IRL) gain too many yards per carry on average when running from the SG4WR.
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JonnyP
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posted: 2013-03-02 20:41:05 (ID: 85298) Report Abuse |
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I have a team which runs from the 4WR.
I get good yards against the Dime (8 ypc average this season) Decent yards vs 3-3-5 (5 ypc this season) Less than 4 ypc against all other formations, with less than 2 ypc against 5-2, and less than 1 ypc vs 4-4/5-3 So I would argue quite vehemently, with evidence, that it's only the dime which gives up big yards - and quite rightfully so! |
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holmeboy
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posted: 2013-03-02 20:52:41 (ID: 85305) Report Abuse |
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JonnyP wrote:
I have a team which runs from the 4WR. I get good yards against the Dime (8 ypc average this season) Decent yards vs 3-3-5 (5 ypc this season) Less than 4 ypc against all other formations, with less than 2 ypc against 5-2, and less than 1 ypc vs 4-4/5-3 So I would argue quite vehemently, with evidence, that it's only the dime which gives up big yards - and quite rightfully so! Tbh that sounds reasonable to me... My issue is with 3-4/4-3 's ability to defend the pass. |
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JonnyP
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posted: 2013-03-02 20:55:02 (ID: 85306) Report Abuse |
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3-4 does it well enough for me, with a decent, fast secondary, and a willingness to blitz MLBs from time to time....
Though I guess it depends on the receivers you face... I would expect 3-4 to have issues against my main 2 Wideouts, which might be why I get the dime thrown at me so damn often! |
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