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Main / Discussions / Using Points Allowed instead of Points Differential Search Forum
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  Poll: Should we change the tiebreakers for the League and Supercup Divisions and Friendly Cups?, Poll closed, votes: 356
121
Yes, use Points allowed instead Points Differential
160
No, keep it as it is now
75
I don't care!
Poster Message
preachie
posted: 2013-03-19 19:02:26 (ID: 87394) Report Abuse
The things is, technically is (almost) everything possible. The simple question is, whether it's worth to spend the time to change a running system to something which will increase the server load for a limited benefit. At least I think that this is what Peter meant
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pete
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 posted: 2013-03-19 19:10:21 (ID: 87400) Report Abuse
The thing is just that I refuse to write a "table standing compiler", and in my opinion you cant have H2H without precompiling tables...that is what I meant with "you can not operate on a single SQL statement". With the current solution this is possible...
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wiesengrund
posted: 2013-03-19 19:45:48 (ID: 87408) Report Abuse
sh8888 wrote:
It's a bad idea.
It will encourage extremely negative tactics, even against Bots.
Currently, even some of the very best RZA teams don't have "shutdown Defenses" .... Reason ? ... because the whole point of the game is to win ... and whether you win 38-35 or 14-0 shouldn't matter much, it's the fact that you've won that should matter.


Wins are still the first tiebreaker, that wouldn't change

And your two examples are actually kinda contrary to your point, since the 14-0 is right now the more favorable result (cause it's PD is better).

Regarding the argument that RZA is open for any style of play: How come the Offensive juggernauts that can put up 150 point on a bot are noew favored over the balanced 100+ teams and defensive 60+ teams? I think the new idea would not be more unfair than what we have now in that aspect, but it would eliminate the bot issue which is great. Also, it makes mathematically sense to hang a tiebreaker on a variable with smaller standard deviation in bot games, since it minimizes their random factor. Bots go 0, 3 or 7 points, against any one of us. PDs against Bots go anything between 50 and 150, favored to good Offenses and with a huge load of random variation in it that isn't suggestive to a true team strength.

I also think that calling all Bot games 35-0 is a valid approach, although it doesn't really solve the in-the-middle-of-the-season-turned-bot-problem. But it's at least better than what we have right now.

Last edited on 2013-03-19 19:45:59 by wiesengrund
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sfniner08
posted: 2013-03-19 19:51:19 (ID: 87409) Report Abuse
Do you have numbers to back up that statement that offensive juggernauts are better than balanced teams in pd?

PD takes all styles into account to slight degrees. Using only half the equation is using only half of your team to determine tiebreakers. The assumption that bots will such a huge factor is that there will be multiple bots in the league at all times. In 1.1 leagues it isn't the case that bots are common.
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wiesengrund
posted: 2013-03-19 19:53:59 (ID: 87410) Report Abuse
sfniner08 wrote:
Do you have numbers to back up that statement that offensive juggernauts are better than balanced teams in pd?

PD takes all styles into account to slight degrees. Using only half the equation is using only half of your team to determine tiebreakers. The assumption that bots will such a huge factor is that there will be multiple bots in the league at all times. In 1.1 leagues it isn't the case that bots are common.


As I read the poll, this is about the SC. In a typical SC Div, how many human teams are there? How many bots? I think we all agree that there are a lot of them. Each game played against them is a difference between 150+ PD (good offenses) and 50-70+ PD (bad Offenses).
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bwadders76
posted: 2013-03-19 19:54:15 (ID: 87411) Report Abuse
Right I've voted no but I thought I would do a bit of research into who would be affected by these changes.

There would be 8 different divisional winners and 11 different runners up.

So I then looked at the 8 divisional winners and their record not just head to head but against live teams (it really isn't that difficult to figure out). On 7 of the 8 changes the side with the best record against live opposition was the side to miss out so even then the bot bashing came into consideration.

Then I looked at the 11 new sides to qualify as runners up and compared them to the 11 who missed out. The side that made the playoffs based on their defensive record played on average 11 bot teams in the supercup.. Those that missed out played between 8 and 9 bot teams.

If this proposed rule change was to be brought into a real life sport you would have fans leaving in their droves as there would be a distinct play not to lose mentality instead of an aggressive playing to win mentality.

PS

Under both sets of conditions the OP doesn't make the playooffs
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sh8888
posted: 2013-03-19 19:56:24 (ID: 87412) Report Abuse
sfniner08 wrote:
Do you have numbers to back up that statement that offensive juggernauts are better than balanced teams in pd?

PD takes all styles into account to slight degrees. Using only half the equation is using only half of your team to determine tiebreakers. The assumption that bots will such a huge factor is that there will be multiple bots in the league at all times. In 1.1 leagues it isn't the case that bots are common.


You're (more-or-less) right .... but at the moment, most people seem to be preoccupied with SC qualifying, and thoughts of League standings appear to have gone out of the window.
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bwadders76
posted: 2013-03-19 20:13:47 (ID: 87417) Report Abuse
wiesengrund wrote:
sfniner08 wrote:
Do you have numbers to back up that statement that offensive juggernauts are better than balanced teams in pd?

PD takes all styles into account to slight degrees. Using only half the equation is using only half of your team to determine tiebreakers. The assumption that bots will such a huge factor is that there will be multiple bots in the league at all times. In 1.1 leagues it isn't the case that bots are common.


As I read the poll, this is about the SC. In a typical SC Div, how many human teams are there? How many bots? I think we all agree that there are a lot of them. Each game played against them is a difference between 150+ PD (good offenses) and 50-70+ PD (bad Offenses).


PD is a million miles better than a PF or PA settling matters. Otherwise you are saying that everyone should stop trying to build a good offense until you have a defense that no one can score on you.


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Meitheisman
posted: 2013-03-19 20:18:52 (ID: 87421) Report Abuse
sfniner08 wrote:
Do you have numbers to back up that statement that offensive juggernauts are better than balanced teams in pd?

PD takes all styles into account to slight degrees. Using only half the equation is using only half of your team to determine tiebreakers. The assumption that bots will such a huge factor is that there will be multiple bots in the league at all times. In 1.1 leagues it isn't the case that bots are common.


The numbers are pretty obvious when Humans play against Bots, team favoring the O might allow an extra TD but they'll easily score 3/4 more than a balanced team and 6/7 more than a Defensive minded team. There PD quite clearly favors the O minded Human teams.
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Meitheisman
posted: 2013-03-19 20:23:02 (ID: 87423) Report Abuse
sh8888 wrote:
sfniner08 wrote:
Do you have numbers to back up that statement that offensive juggernauts are better than balanced teams in pd?

PD takes all styles into account to slight degrees. Using only half the equation is using only half of your team to determine tiebreakers. The assumption that bots will such a huge factor is that there will be multiple bots in the league at all times. In 1.1 leagues it isn't the case that bots are common.


You're (more-or-less) right .... but at the moment, most people seem to be preoccupied with SC qualifying, and thoughts of League standings appear to have gone out of the window.


It matters in both competitions, because there are fewer bot games in 1.1 leagues they matter even more as they can easily increase on team's PD by 200 if the bot's in this team's division. 200 PD's more than enough to give one team the tie-breaker basically because some team went Bot in their division.
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