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| Main / Suggestions / The K.I.S.S. Method... Search Forum | |
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Lee1950
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posted: 2011-10-22 21:50:16 (ID: 14085) Report Abuse |
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It might help to revise the way you look at the game.
This game (and nearly every on-line sports management game ever) starts out with lots of marginal players, with a sprinkling of a few quality guys who need development. The current abilities of the players you get when you first log in is similar to what you would expect if a college dorm decided to challenge the dorm next door, elected you head coach, and you nailed up a try-out sheet. A bunch of guys would show up, and sort themselves into QBs, RBs, OL, etc. As manager, you can choose to accept their self evaluation, or you can impose some sort of order and logic, and put the big slow strong guys on the line, the ones with crazy eyes at LB, and the fast guys with grippy hands at wideout. If we were starting with the GB Packers, or even the Frankfurt Galaxy, everything you say about the players would be true. Edit: I see JonnyP posted just before I did - and, he said it better than I did!!  Last edited on 2011-10-22 21:52:47 by Lee1950 |
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sfniner08
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posted: 2011-10-23 00:04:35 (ID: 14088) Report Abuse |
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Swordpriest1 wrote:
But see Jack here's the thing... Being a Gunner and then being trained as a CB is something that is common practice because Gunners and Cornerbacks have the same physical dimensions (Weight/Speed). (BTW.. already suggested this but there is NO position called Gunner in football.. its a minor special team role of little consequence). New players wouldnt come into the game maxed at any particular attribute... but they would be better at something in which is important to their position. Lets say the max for a the throwing stat is 50. A new QB would enter the game at a 20 in throwing.. you would have to develope him to 50 of course but as you can tell the potential is there. Taking that same method.. If I have a new OL his throwing would be a 3 (because when have u ever seen a OL throw the ball?) so there'd be no point in furthering his throwing ability through training. Guys I'm not trying to be difficult here... this isn't European football in which the skills are very cross-over in ability and if given time you could train a DF to a MF or MF to Striker and everything else.. In American football when it comes to the pro level the players roles are pretty much already defined. I dont even need one hand to count the amount of players who have played even ONE play as both offensive player and a defensive player in the past 10 years. Just because you guys come to the message board and say "I think a DL can be trained to play WR because what if he has to catch the ball on an interception" doesnt make it true to form that a DL in real life could in any way shape or form EVER play WR at the highest level. I cant stress it enough... if you want the game to be realistic you have to make players more categorized by positions in their physical attributes. I can guarantee that if not addressed the bigger the game gets the more people will come up here having this exchange in the forum question -"Hey guys.. I'm new to the game but I noticed something while figuring my depth chart, my punter has a higher throwing ability than my starting QB. How is this possible?" answer - "Maybe your punter is the best potential QB on your team" response- "Well that doesnt make since.. punters never play QB" answer - "hey.. you have 45 guys on your team.. its YOUR job to find out which one is the best QB. And oh if that wasnt hard and time consuming enough you have to do that with every single position on the depth chart..".. You might as well put a disclaimer on the home page stating quit your day job and drop out of school. I guess if you aren't willing to put some time and effort into this game then it isn't for you. I don't mean you specifically, but I mean any new user. A game shouldn't be made to cater to the lowest denominator, meaning it shouldn't be made for those who aren't willing to do the work. Yes you SHOULD have to look through your roster to determine the best position for that player. It takes about 45 minutes to do so. As stated before, this sim isn't any different than most sims out there for football. You keep trying to say real life, real life, but in real life....however this isn't real life. This is a modified sim. This site's sim has nothing to do with European vs American style. My advice to you is to suck it up and try this out a while and check out other sims to see how they are run to compare. If you are honest about it you will see that this one is run better than most. The one site that I also like has a fundamental difference in that it is more player based than owner based. It is GLB. If you already know it then you know the detailed plays they have. However it is a different perspective of play. |
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Swordpriest1
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posted: 2011-10-23 01:36:33 (ID: 14090) Report Abuse |
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I've only played a couple of online manager games. One a soccer game that simulates real-life players so the development aspect is reflected on how that player does on the real pitch. The other is a basketball sim in which the individual user creates a developmental basketball player and its upon the user to develope that player into greatness or if you want manager a team full of user controlled players.
Both of these games players roles/attributes are defined by their position which is clearly defined. It doesnt mean that any other set of managerial parameters are any less or more intense than they are in this game. It doesnt mean that the competition is any less or more difficult than it is in this game. All it is is the game doenst just back up a dump truck of players to your door step and say "Here's your team.... no instruction manual/ no labels for assembly" American football rosters are huge and in real life if what this game is proposing is how it works.. I as manager would have the luxury of atleast LOOKING at a players height/weight to atleast gauge where he fits (before they even put on pads). In this game we dont even get that! I dont know how other football manager games are run but I would bet that they put a Position on a player without the individual managers having to dig through data like its a company financial report. I'm hearing things like "Its GREAT that I have potential 45 offensive linemen on my roster of 45 and so forth for every position" but as I ask... What good is that for? Your not going to all 45 in the depth chart for OL so just trim the fat and let me evaluate the OL that are supposed to be OL. I forget the name but someone mentioned that they had some sort of Dorm league where a guy came to America for a bit and came back a WR after playing DL and how he played HB/CB/and Center or something. I mean thats the beauty of back yard football.. we all wear a bunch of hats but and I dont mean to joke but is this a dorm league? Or are trying to run a professional organization with virtual players who are grown men getting paid potentially worth millions of dollars and selling out stadiums? What this game is proposing in player development is equal to you naming your price on how much it will cost to build seats in your stadium... its equal to your offensive coach being able to be your defensive coach if you label him the defensive coach. The logic doesnt make since. If told that this game was backyard football... I'd object initially but then I'd come around to most of your pov and remember when I too played every position with my friends in school. But were being ask to run multi-million dollar teams and your trying to sell me and realism that I'm going to have 75 men come to my practice facility and they can (if trained well enough) play EVERY position. K.I.S.S. I think some of you are confusing with make it easy or lowest common denominator which i heard someone say.. it means make it efficient. NO ONE who comes here expecting play a football manager game will leave because players come with suggested and labeled positions within the engine (does not mean they only can play that position). I can guarantee that you will have people leave because of the unnecessary work that is defining 75 guys with only a bunch of numbers on top of everything else you have to absorb and learn when starting this game. If you want to attract the most managers... you make it as close to real life as possible. And theres many things the ADMIN has done in regards to maintaining that but deciding to go into Fantasy land with player positions is a cardinal sin in Pro-Football. Football has gotten so technical and so refined that a player who is good at everything but great at nothing won't even see the field. Talent evaluaters dont care how a QB tackles, catches or kicks. His talent level/rating is gauged in total by things that matter in his position only. If this game is even to pretend to be realistic the engine must reflect that. |
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Swordpriest1
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posted: 2011-10-23 01:50:55 (ID: 14091) Report Abuse |
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and I totally forgot about the transfer market.. When one wants to search for a QB there are two crucial errors he come across.
- You cant do a search that is position specific only skill specific. - When bidding on a player why should his value be higher (or lower) because of his skills in areas which your not even looking for him to play? see what I'm getting at? By having labels and roles your trimming fat not just in your time but the numbers (economical and statistical) as a value would be more accurate. |
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Admin
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posted: 2011-10-23 11:53:27 (ID: 14102) |
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Hm, I try to get those long posts made here, but my english gives up from time to time.
As far as I understood each of you made some valid points, but what's the conclusion of that? Is there one and I missed it? |
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Swordpriest1
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posted: 2011-10-23 18:14:39 (ID: 14115) Report Abuse |
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yeah.. my fault.. I'm aware that many here arent native english speaks so I try and use as much clear and understanding language as I can.
What I basically am saying is that in football at the highest level the players come into the game with clear positions. There overall attributes in terms of how they are initially rated should reflect that. So lets say a new player comes into the game. If he's a DL his tackling should be higher than a new player who comes into the game as OL and his speed should be slower than a new player who comes into the game as CB. It gives managers something to work with in terms of how they properly look at and train the players on their team instead of everybody on the roster being looked at and trained the sameway |
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Admin
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posted: 2011-10-23 22:01:28 (ID: 14123) |
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There is a con on this way you suggest: if all players would follow schemes, then there would be no reason in figuring out by the manager himself whats important and whats not.
But I understand the pro! |
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Swordpriest1
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posted: 2011-10-24 00:54:31 (ID: 14127) Report Abuse |
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I'm glad u acknowledge the pro... but if you could explain in a little more detail the con? I'm not sure I understand completely...
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| posted: 2011-10-24 07:00:59 (ID: 14132) Report Abuse | |
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This game here is build to be played that way:
- Get players from transfer market, any kind you want (young, old, almost full build, totally equal ...) - take young players from the youth academy, weak, slow, and equally build - take 3 players from the draft, physically almost finished, and half developed in the other skills NOW build a team around those players to win. That's the main management part of the game. Because if you don't manage THAT, you will not win. What's suggesting is a game build around players like you get in the draft and that's it. That's how MADDEN NFL is constructed. From my point of view, this would take away a funny part of the game. I would love to get more players from the draft, even if they were a little bit less trained than the players at the moment. Remember that this games just started. Once it is in it's 5-10 season, there will be a rich amount of players available and those will not switch position. |
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panoramix
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posted: 2011-10-24 13:02:53 (ID: 14141) Report Abuse |
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jack6 wrote:Once it is in it's 5-10 season, there will be a rich amount of players available and those will not switch position.
Sorry Jack, but the risk is: in 5-10 seasons we will have full of clone-players. The only discriminant will be the talent, not the role, the tail or the weight of players. |
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