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| Main / Discussions / Restructuring the league Search Forum | |
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PJRAVENS
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posted: 2019-04-21 07:49:21 (ID: 100139081) Report Abuse |
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If I have correctly understood we are talking about two majour points
1) 1.1 teams just promoted in elite have to fill an huge gap against the best established elite teams and so they got relegated ("boring" season because they are losing the majority of the matches) 2) 1.1. leagues are lacking good teams and so teams just relegated from elite have too few opponents at their level ("boring" season because they are winning the majority of the matches) We are talking about a pool of maybe six tems per regions = 48 teams so 48/380 = 12.6% of the base line I do not think that reducing the number of the regions under the elite can solve the first point. Suppose we reduce the league from eight to two... Instead of promote the first two teams of each league you have to promote the first eight teams of the two new leagues... If you relegate only one team per elite division you have to promote the first four teams of the two new leagues I do not think that the quality of the just promoted teams would be so better than now. The best 16 teams in elite are there for two major reasions 1) They are 16/380 = 4% of the baseline and they are there because they are the best RZA managers! 2) Because they are the best RZA managers they can have exra budget on regular basis. If this is a problem, the solution is not changing the league structure. Reducing the number of the regions under the elite can help to solve the point two because this push back weakest teams to level 2.x So who start playng will find more affordable opponents and level 1.1 became more challenging. I guess that from the point of view of encoding the solution with less impact should be close four regions and activate for the remaining regions the league 2.2 The impact if I am not wrong should be only in the promotion/relegation algorithm towards elite. (Perhaps...) Relegation from elite one team per division Promotions versus elite as now (two 1.1 bowl contenders). This is only my opinion, just to talk. I want to wish to Pete and all of you an happy Easter. Thanks again Pete for all you do to give us fun and I want to say again that RZA already now like it is, is a fantastic game ! |
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| posted: 2019-04-21 09:59:36 (ID: 100139085) Report Abuse | |
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changing the number of regions means we relegate half the managers of D1 to D2. I do not see how this could work out while RZA is running. This is why I mentioned the idea of closing RZA1 and restart with RZA2 and 4 regions only - I posted it when this discussion started, if I remember correctly..
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2019-04-21 11:39:35 (ID: 100139091) Report Abuse |
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PJRAVENS wrote:
If I have correctly understood we are talking about two majour points 1) 1.1 teams just promoted in elite have to fill an huge gap against the best established elite teams and so they got relegated ("boring" season because they are losing the majority of the matches) 2) 1.1. leagues are lacking good teams and so teams just relegated from elite have too few opponents at their level ("boring" season because they are winning the majority of the matches) We are talking about a pool of maybe six tems per regions = 48 teams so 48/380 = 12.6% of the base line I do not think that reducing the number of the regions under the elite can solve the first point. Suppose we reduce the league from eight to two... Instead of promote the first two teams of each league you have to promote the first eight teams of the two new leagues... If you relegate only one team per elite division you have to promote the first four teams of the two new leagues I do not think that the quality of the just promoted teams would be so better than now. The best 16 teams in elite are there for two major reasions 1) They are 16/380 = 4% of the baseline and they are there because they are the best RZA managers! 2) Because they are the best RZA managers they can have exra budget on regular basis. If this is a problem, the solution is not changing the league structure. Reducing the number of the regions under the elite can help to solve the point two because this push back weakest teams to level 2.x So who start playng will find more affordable opponents and level 1.1 became more challenging. I guess that from the point of view of encoding the solution with less impact should be close four regions and activate for the remaining regions the league 2.2 The impact if I am not wrong should be only in the promotion/relegation algorithm towards elite. (Perhaps...) Relegation from elite one team per division Promotions versus elite as now (two 1.1 bowl contenders). This is only my opinion, just to talk. I want to wish to Pete and all of you an happy Easter. Thanks again Pete for all you do to give us fun and I want to say again that RZA already now like it is, is a fantastic game ! Pete responded already but I disagree with your calculations completely. A straight pyramid would mean more competitive gaves for everyone. If instead of 32 Elite teams (actually 8*4 Elite teams) and then 8 leagues of 32 teams we had a straight up one league per level it would mean closer games for all because now you can have a top 20 team in the same league as a team ranked ~250. Maybe we'd end up with 9 Admirals or SeaDevils in Elite and only 1 Fire team but there is no doubt that putting teams that are closer in terms of level would mean more competitive games for all. Given the constraints Pete has expressed the best way to put more teams of similar level in the same league would be to create a league level between Elite and the 8 level 1 leagues. |
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2019-04-21 11:47:57 (ID: 100139092) Report Abuse |
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Let's take the example of a borderline PO team in Fire. Today it has to play against bots or noobs (easy wins) but also against Maykop, TigerCats, the Purple Cowboys or my team (blowout losses). It would clearly be better for all involved if this borderline PO Fire team could instead be placed in a league with Dragon or Claymore teams of similar strength.
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RavenCorp
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posted: 2019-04-21 12:05:37 (ID: 100139093) Edits found: 1 Report Abuse |
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pete wrote:
changing the number of regions means we relegate half the managers of D1 to D2. I do not see how this could work out while RZA is running. This is why I mentioned the idea of closing RZA1 and restart with RZA2 and 4 regions only - I posted it when this discussion started, if I remember correctly.. As a pretty new team (joined about a year ago), i think this would be going towards the right direction of this game. But i dont believe in 4 leagues either, 2 tops otherwise you might be in this problem once again in a few years. I started in league lvl 2, played 15 bots and 1 human player, won it easily. I promoted to 1.1 and got bashed in about every game but managed to win 2, or i won the relegation game (against a bot, dont really remember). Now in my 5 season im in the the middle of the league, but im really far behind against the top teams and i fear i will always be becourse of this league structure. So i will probably have alot of seasons being mediocre and thats thats not really wishfull, especially since a real year contains for about 4 seasons in RZA. a simple pyramid would be best in games like this on the web. Almost all kind of soccer, icehockey, tennis and so on that i have played use a simple pyramid structure. How come this game started with 8 different leagues? 1.1 2.1 3.1 4.1 5.1 and so on would create more equally lvled teams and you have a better posibility to climb, (atleast more lvl to climp instead of just a single step (2 -1) and a hard, close to impossible one (1- elite)... Last edited on 2019-04-21 12:06:49 by RavenCorp |
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| posted: 2019-04-21 12:27:29 (ID: 100139094) Report Abuse | |
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Basically the game started in 8 regions. 8 was good, because it represents the power of 2, which makes math easy when you deal with leagues 32 teams each. Yes, we could have used just 4 regions from the beginning, but this is just a decision made in 2009.
Elite was added later |
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PJRAVENS
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posted: 2019-04-21 12:39:06 (ID: 100139095) Report Abuse |
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Meitheisman wrote:
Pete responded already but I disagree with your calculations completely. A straight pyramid would mean more competitive gaves for everyone. If instead of 32 Elite teams (actually 8*4 Elite teams) and then 8 leagues of 32 teams we had a straight up one league per level it would mean closer games for all because now you can have a top 20 team in the same league as a team ranked ~250. Maybe we'd end up with 9 Admirals or SeaDevils in Elite and only 1 Fire team but there is no doubt that putting teams that are closer in terms of level would mean more competitive games for all. Given the constraints Pete has expressed the best way to put more teams of similar level in the same league would be to create a league level between Elite and the 8 level 1 leagues. As I had posted here I agree with you and I would be in favour of a straight pyramid structure More balanced leagues more fun for everybody. What I have not understood is why a league between elite and the 8 regions could help to promote in elite more prepared teams. I am asking your opinion I am not contradicting you We have sixteen spots available... Do you think that promoting 16 teams from this league would be different than promoting two teams from the 8 regions? |
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| posted: 2019-04-21 13:29:58 (ID: 100139097) Edits found: 2 Report Abuse | |
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I did no deep checks if this is possible, but if I would have to change anything in the relation of Elite vs D1, I would probably add the earlier mentioned PO games. But in a different way.
Lets say we have the Elite division representing Admirals. We have a winner of this division, and 3 "losers". So Teams A (winner), B (1st loser), C (2nd loser) and D (worst team of division). D would exchange spots with the super bowl winner of the Admirals D1. C would exchange spots with the Admirals Superbowl Loser. B and A would have to play relegation games vs the two CC losers of Admirals D1, the winners of these games play Elite. Yes, this could create a situatiuon where the Elite Superbowl Winner relegates after losing his game vs the CC loser of Admirals. But hey, if you cannot beat a team from a lower league, what the heck are you doing in Elite? For income etc the releagtion game rules would apply as usual. Just rough, but I like the aspect ALL Elite teams would have to fight for their spot. Edit: needless to say this happens 8 times, for each Elite division representing a region Last edited on 2019-04-21 13:37:05 by pete |
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Meitheisman
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posted: 2019-04-21 14:53:58 (ID: 100139099) Report Abuse |
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PJRAVENS wrote:
Meitheisman wrote:
Pete responded already but I disagree with your calculations completely. A straight pyramid would mean more competitive gaves for everyone. If instead of 32 Elite teams (actually 8*4 Elite teams) and then 8 leagues of 32 teams we had a straight up one league per level it would mean closer games for all because now you can have a top 20 team in the same league as a team ranked ~250. Maybe we'd end up with 9 Admirals or SeaDevils in Elite and only 1 Fire team but there is no doubt that putting teams that are closer in terms of level would mean more competitive games for all. Given the constraints Pete has expressed the best way to put more teams of similar level in the same league would be to create a league level between Elite and the 8 level 1 leagues. As I had posted here I agree with you and I would be in favour of a straight pyramid structure More balanced leagues more fun for everybody. What I have not understood is why a league between elite and the 8 regions could help to promote in elite more prepared teams. I am asking your opinion I am not contradicting you We have sixteen spots available... Do you think that promoting 16 teams from this league would be different than promoting two teams from the 8 regions? Okay, gotcha regarding the pyramids structure. I don't necessarily think a league between 1 and Elite would change anything for the Elite league but I think it would mean more competitive games for everyone else. The 32 (or 64) teams in Pre-Elite would play more games against each other and the weaker teams in league 1 would see the top teams move up and therefore get trashed less and also play more competitive games. I think the Elite as is, is the best it can be given the 4*8 constraints and don't think anything needs to be changed at that level. The true Elite teams stay there, the quasi-Elite teams like mine go up and down and those really not good enough very rarely make it so if one league works well in RZA imo it's the Elite. |
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marinarul10
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posted: 2019-04-22 00:24:09 (ID: 100139108) Report Abuse |
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pete wrote:
I did no deep checks if this is possible, but if I would have to change anything in the relation of Elite vs D1, I would probably add the earlier mentioned PO games. But in a different way. Lets say we have the Elite division representing Admirals. We have a winner of this division, and 3 "losers". So Teams A (winner), B (1st loser), C (2nd loser) and D (worst team of division). D would exchange spots with the super bowl winner of the Admirals D1. C would exchange spots with the Admirals Superbowl Loser. B and A would have to play relegation games vs the two CC losers of Admirals D1, the winners of these games play Elite. Yes, this could create a situatiuon where the Elite Superbowl Winner relegates after losing his game vs the CC loser of Admirals. But hey, if you cannot beat a team from a lower league, what the heck are you doing in Elite? For income etc the releagtion game rules would apply as usual. Just rough, but I like the aspect ALL Elite teams would have to fight for their spot. Edit: needless to say this happens 8 times, for each Elite division representing a region I like that but 1. I think a 16-0 Elite team should secure a spot in Elite next season, so in other words, the winner of an Elite division should secure a spot for next season ... 2. This change will not fix the 1.1 competitiveness problem, so the relegated Elite team will go to 1.1 where they will still have just a few serious games all season..... Just to be clear, instead of no change this will be a great change imo |
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